Spring Sunrise!

  Another georgeous sunrise from the Treasure Coast.......

Lakewood Park Brush Fire

We left 'Archies' after a wonderfully glutinous lunch of beer, bacon cheeseburgers and wings. As we drove over South Bridge we noticed smoke. Where there is smoke there is fire so we drove north west looking for the 'inferno'. We finally found it up on Indrio Rd in Lakewood Park......Sorry no flames I tried to con Fred into trespassing but the kids kept begging to go home. There bellies were full and they were tired. Teenagers and their nap times can be frustrating.



Forestry Chopper dropping water



The sky is so pretty.



FHPL blocking the road for Fire Department....Where's SLCSO?

Victory Forge Military Academy in Port St Lucie

I vaguely know of this facility. I only am aware of it through my job so I am not surprised that many residents do not know it exists. I have had parents on different occasions ask about military academy's for their children and have had little information to give them but what one can locate in the yellow pages or the internet.

Now I am very familiar with DCF and these are regular folk like you and me trying to do their job. Unfortunately, this type of job can leave little room for error like my own. There is no room for personal opinions and beliefs. I need to know has the law been broken?

Just because as a parent I give my permission to the handcuff and detain my child, is my written permission enough?

I went through Florida statute and I can't find anything that indicates this is specifically illegal. However read Florida State Statue 39.001 Purposes and intent; personnel standards and screening.

Loose definition - Abuse is determined by DCF and the Sate of Florida.

Federal Guidelines dictate:

"The new protections establish two sets of standards, depending on the type of facility. One applies to "non-medical community-based facilities for children and youth." The facilities will be defined in regulations and will include group homes and the like. The other set applies to any health care facility that receives federal appropriated funds, such as a public or private general hospital, an intermediate-care facility or other health care facility. All must comply with the general principle of protecting and promoting the right to be free from restraints and seclusion for purposes of discipline or convenience.

The statute requires that seclusion and restraint be used only:

* to ensure the physical safety of the individual or others; and
* subject to a written order by a physician or other licensed practitioner permitted by the facility and state law. In most cases, the written order will be obtained soon after the restraint or seclusion is initiated by staff. "


Personally and my children know this and believe this, I will use restraints to keep them safe and will give permission for the same to a military academy if I felt the need to send my child to one. However, I hope I have raised my children with respect and given them enough freedom to choose for themselves the path of right and wrong. I will do what ever I have can to make sure my children abide the law and it is no ones business how I raise my children as long as they are not harmed or in any danger of being harmed excluding corporal punishment - spankings (I am a firm believer in 'spare the rod spoil the child'). It would be nice if Florida law was a little more specific like federal guide lines. I know it would make me feel better than having to rely on another person's opinion or beliefs as to whether I was abusive or not.

You Can Run But You Cant Hide...........

My daughters are the worst. They are so pretty and I love to take pictures of them but bring a camera anywhere near them and they throw up the arm, turn away or flat out run away.


I keep trying though.



I will get my pictures whether she likes it or not.



Maybe not......................

Winner - Florida Shine Team wins a phone call from Bucky Covington and Name that Picture Contest.

And the winner is Moon with "Where the heck is Rocky going with MY bike?"

Congratulations!!!

Moon needs to send me her address for her 8X10 glossy!!!!!

My team the gals from Florida Shine did it again. We posted the mostest so we win a phone call from Bucky Covington. I want to thank anyone who helped by posting or visiting the widget. I also want to thank Bucky's fans for working so hard at taking Bucky into the top ten by holding a little contest. I took this picture of Bucky in Zellwood, Florida last summer. It is the most popular picture on my flickr account.

This picture needs a name.

Please send me your great ideas. I will pick the best name with the help of my very picky daughters and send the winner an 8 x 10 glossy of this picture.

I will make the deadline Sunday evening 11pm on April 20th eastern standard time and announce the winner on Monday afternoon April 21st.

Good Luck!!!!!

I have a new title!

I mentioned earlier that I had some news but I have yet to figure out if this is good news or bad news. I am excited but a little upset all at the same time because my "promotion" for a lack of a better word came at the expense of another.

I am now the "Assistant Training Supervisor".

I get to train. I get to train from point A to point Z.

What have I gotten myself into.

I have less than 2 weeks to ammend my training manual for one on one training. This was the idea that I came up with so SURPRISE! I get to implement it. I am very pleased and happy that my boss likes my ideas and has given me so much support. But, I really think I have chewed off a large chunck. I admit I am not prepared for complete and total control over such an important aspect of the center.

I do not want to let this go to my head as if that was possible. I am terrified I am going to screw up. There are so many things I would like to see change but I am afraid if I move to fast I will be pushy but if I choose to move cautiously I will be over run. I guess I will settle for doing the best job I can and hope for the best. Wish me luck!!!!

Procrastination

 

I am going to call this one 'Procrastination'. Yesterday, my hubby and I took a trip to Okeechobee. We enjoyed a nice ride, one stretch included a very bumpy, dusty dirt road that took us out into cattle fields. Hubby sees this structure off in the distance so we park and start hiking. Now my husband is 6'5 and I am 5'2, yes it looks funny but I love him anyways. Hubby takes a direct path through the thickest part of the field. He has long legs the only thing he is worried about is feral hogs. I could care less about feral hogs. I am meaner than a feral hog. It's those large reptiles I don't like. My ears and eyes are sharp listening to that tell-tale rattle or hiss. I am carefully scanning the tall grass looking for that large monster rattle snake that is going to jump out of the palm scrub or abandoned gopher turtle hole and bite me. I really don't mind snakes in general but I hate rattlers.

Luckily we saw no giant rattle snakes and I eventually found a cleared path and I was happy again. We finally make it to the silo. I was thinking it was old and falling down but no it's worse. It was under construction and never finished. The steel rods at the top as you can see are falling off. It was a sad sight and I think this pictured turned out fairly well with a little light adjustment. All my pictures came out too bright. I will learn one of these days but my hubby still shakes his head. and tells me to go take a class.

"I will." I always respond. The queen of procrastination has found her totem. Her mantra "One of these days."

I am proud of myself regardless because I did finish my taxes today. I finally made copies of my return. I found all the correct paper work that goes with it, placed it in an envelope, addressed the envelope, found stamps (A NIGHTMARE IN ITSELF)and had my hubby mail it before 4pm. Sadly, I really finished our taxes several weeks ago hubby had to move the papers off the printer to use it. On top of the printer they have laid until this afternoon and believe it or not, this is an improvement for me. I usually don't file until May sometimes later...........

Fort Pierce City Hall and Eric Pierre-Jerome's Family

I happened to see this article and found it very upsetting. There are so many things I would like to say but I will let the article speak for itself.

Early Morning

 

This picture is a little dark but I love the way the rising sun reflects off the water. I love sunrise. I love the sky and the brilliant color palette as the sun rises over the horizon.

I was up early this morning and made sure I grabbed my camera so I could get a few shots of the sunrise as I made my way up the highway towards Orlando. I found a nice grove of palm trees, the clouds little cotton puffs against a lovely orange and purple background. I whip out my camera, focus and take the shot. I repeat only this time nothing. I fiddle with the camera turn it off then back on but I get a blank screen. Damn, the battery is dead. I need to make sure I check that battery thing more often because I don't have a spare battery. I did have my daughter's little Cannon One Shot so I took a few road shots as I traveled up SR 441. I needed to do something at 8 am this morning to keep me awake. I still haven't looked at those yet maybe tomorrow.

I spent most of the day in Orlando waiting for my mom to be released from the hospital. Made it home a little after 1pm nap at 4pm back up at 6:30 pm more nap now back up with little to do but write about it. I need to go play WOW. ('World of Warcraft' for u noobs) TaTa!!!!!

The Beach

The Beach March 2008_0048, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

There is nothing like a warm day at the beach. Enjoy!

A few posts ago I mentioned a new beginning, boy was that the understatement of the year. I will fill everybody in over the next week or so on what is going on.

Back on Midnights

I answered phones, came up with a training schedule, and read blogs (in between answering phones).

A large thanks to all the great blogs out there on the internet. I am entertained!!!!!!

What a week!!!

 

I am posting another picture I took Sunday morning on my outing with my hubby. I like the way this one looks in black and white.

I think I am looking forward to going back to work after my very interesting 10 day vacation. I have to start working on my training manual as usual it needs to be update already and more detailed I think. It will also take my mind off what has been going on in my life these past few days. Mom is in Orlando in the hospital she has had a stroke but will be home Friday. She will recover slowly but she will recover. I saw her yesterday and will be back up to get her on Friday. Everyone in my house seems to be doing okay but I do not know what the future holds and I think that is what scares me the most.

A Beautiful Sunday Morning with a Little Rain.

 

Fred had me up early this morning to watch the sunrise. There wasn't much to see with all the clouds but Fred took some gorgeous shots as usual. This is mine the better of a bad lot. I can't get that ISO thing right.

The day cleared up and was sunny for a few hours but now thunder rocks the house upsetting poor Zack. He is trying to lay on Fred while Cujo sleeps through it all. Kids are back to school tomorrow and I have two more days of vacation. Lucky Me!

April, A New Bginning!

This last week has kept me very busy. I took the week off to spend time with my family, catching up on badly needed chores and I ended up with more than I expected. Day one my husband was admitted to the hospital for a rapid and irregular heart beat. Five days later they released him. He is fine but they have him on blood thinners and have changed his blood pressure medicine. He has also stopped smoking, quit drinking alcohol and has limited his caffeine consumption. He feels better and we like him better this way.

Now during hubby's stay at the Holiday Inn at Lawnwood Medical Center, I took the girls to Universal Studios. We promised them at least two days this past week and actually made plans to stay Sunday to Tuesday possibly Wednesday depending on how much money we spent. We drove up early Monday spent the night and all day Tuesday at Universal/Islands of Adventure.



I hated leaving Fred but he kept thinking the Dr. was going to let him go home and was actually looking forward to some quiet time. We left him the van and off we went. We had a good time. The girls walked my legs off. I ended up with blisters all over my feet.



We made it home Tuesday night and Fred finally came home Wednesday morning. Life is getting back to normal. Elizabeth has decided to take Warrens old room and spent most of the week painting. She just finished last night and will be moving in this morning which is a good thing because Warren will be staying with us for a few months until he can get caught up on his bills. His last job did not work out. He starts a new job in Vero on Monday but until his finances are more settled he has decided to stay at home.

I just printed out my taxes - done. I painted my bathroom - done. I need to repaint my bedroom and the hallways of the house - hopefully done soon. I have not felt so good the last few weeks and even though so much has happened this week I think it has all happened for the good. There was a lot of drama here this past week as you can imagine. However, I am feeling better and I am looking forward to what the rest of the year will bring.

I am streaming Bucky Covington all day! See Link!!!!

My computer is back up and running but my laptop blew the video card so I am down to one computer again. (My mother board took a dump on my PC.) I spent a week in hell having to sneak onto my husbands computer when he wasn't looking just to read my email. UPS finally showed up with my parts and three days of nagging finally placed my PC back on my desk and another two days of reinstalls and I am good. My pictures are stuck on a hard drive I cant get to so today I will repost from Flickr. I also want to brag a little. Floridashine Team won again when Bucky Hit #15 on the charts. I have a signed t-shirt and a autographed pictured signed 'Kathy Thanks Bucky Covington'. I love them. Bucky is climbing the charts and is approaching # 10 with 'It's Good to be Us'. I am streaming on CMT, YES.com and looking for new places to post the widget. We want another win at #10 so if you haven't voted please do today. Go to amazon buy 'It's Good to be Us' on MP3 only .99 or listen free at CMT. Play Bucky we want him at #!.

Bucky Covington @ Germain Arena 03/15/2008

St Lucie County cuts back.

The fall out from 'The Save Our Homes' legislation has the municipalities and the county government in an uproar. There is no extra money to spend and the powers that be are demanding up to 20% cuts in department budgets. Employees tend to be the largest part of a budget which means the potential loss of 20% of employees from each department being cut. County employees where initially told there would be no layoffs but then the rumors of potential cuts in the IT department and Public Safety have started filtrating into daily conversations in the center. 911 is safe so far but the commissioners are screaming about the overtime. I was told our overtime budget was 5x higher than any other department but we are also the only 24/7 department under the BOCC. E911 is still under staffed and have minimum employee requirements on a daily basis that have to be fulfilled.

The county administrators just finished a two day brainstorming meeting and now the sheriff is threatening to lay off 115 deputies. The clerks office is rumored to being laying off 8 employees based on job performance but I can't find anything to substantiate this rumor. The state has already proposed a drastically reduced budget to the governor and the court system is taking a pretty hefty cut. There will be layoff. It's coming but no one knows when.

I took the liberty of borrowing this list of items in the county from the Ft Pierce Tribune. Maybe it will give an idea of what the county admins are doing to economize. I read the opinions people spew and at one time I put my two cents worth but even I got tired of bantering with idiots how don't research or read before that make stupid comments. I linked this entry to the latest Tribune article. I feel bad for the admins who have to decide who leaves and who stays that can't be easy. The only good thing about this situation that I can think of, is if cuts are based by performance a lot of dead weight is trimmed that needed to be otherwise I feel bad for those who may loose their livelihood.

N THE CHOPPING BLOCK?

•Continue the employee hiring freeze (savings: $2.7 million).

•Stop paying for school resource officers (savings: $600,000).

•Close all libraries (except the main Fort Pierce library) one day per week (savings: $163,752).

•Cut money for outside agencies (such as the Council on Aging and Healthy Start) by 10 percent (savings: $2.2 million).

•Stop mowing medians and county right-of-ways (savings: $620,710).

•Cut money for financial recovery fund (savings: $2.75 million).

•No new capital projects or equipment purchases (savings: $11.8 million).

•No budget increases for clerk of court, supervisor of elections or sheriff's office (savings: $2.7 million).

COUNTY BUDGET NUMBERS

Projected shortfall in all county areas: $29.9 million

Projected shortfall after factoring in money set aside and other cost savings: $15 million

Projected general fund shortfall: $17.3 million

Projected general fund shortfall after factoring in money set aside and other cost savings: $6.3 million

Projected shortfall because of property tax reform over next five years (number provided by the state): $94.9 million

St. Lucie County (numbers subject to change)

The New Microwave!

 

My microwave broke the other day infact my husband accused me of breaking it on purpose because a friend of mine at work is selling her over the counter microwave and her french door refridgorator for a very resonable price. I have been dying for a new fridge and I just drool over the new french door design so when 'Donut" needed to rid herself of these items at more than half the retail price I jumped on it. My hubby was the voice of reason this time even though she is literally giving these items away, we still cant afford them.

Of course when our microwave breaks only 2 days later, it is my fault. I broke it on purpose. The fact that the microve/convection oven is over 13 years old has nothing to do with it's death. I broke it.

My family has suffered with out a microvewave for almost a week. My husband can't heat up water for his tea. My children can not reheat left overs or pizza, no one knows how to defrost meat, and of my goodness how do you cook a bag of popcorn. My hubby broke down and bought a temperary replacement until a new over the counter microwave/convection oven can be replace.

I am next planning the demise of my refridgerator. Please don't tell my husband!

Bucky all night long!

Okay maybe not all night long but I have been sitting at my computer for the last several hours streaming Bucky Covington's new single 'It's Good to be Us' on CMT. My daughter yelled at me because I am also streaming on my husband's computer. I know I'm pathetic but my team 'Floridashine' has won two of the 3 contests the fan club is running. I will be getting another t-shirt and another autographed picture of Bucky. Yeah!!!!!!

We must be doing something right because his single is at number 15 and still climbing. I get to see him again this coming weekend in Estero, Fl., but this time I will take my daughters camera and hopefully I will get better pictures than last time. It would be really great if all my readers would give Bucky your vote for the CMA's and stream 'It's Good to be Us' on CMT. We really want to see him make it all the way to number one.

911 and Advice

 

I will not give advice to the public. I will not give advice to the public. I will not give advice to the public. I will not give advice to the public x1000

One of these days I will learn to keep my mouth shut maybe, hopefully, okay who am I kidding.

I am a mom so naturally advice spews from my mouth. It is very hard to be quiet when a few choice words of wisdom might change the course of history.

Of course this is only in a perfect world and last time I checked I lived in the alternate reality which is Fort Pierce/Port St Lucie area where phrases like "I am educated" issue from someone who can't tell the difference between a real check and loan advertisement and send me the 'PO PO' is more common than I'd like to admit to.

The public wants to know what they should do but I am not allowed to tell people how they shoud live their lives. I know from years of experience that 'Thank Yous' are few and far between and advice is never taken if even listened to. The majority of the public that calls 911 just want the police to make it stop and go away, they dont want excuses, they want it now.

I like to think that I am doing better with my attitude. I am nicer and I listen better and interupt less but trying to damn the advice is almost impossible.

I swear I will learn to keep my mouth shut. Okay realistically, I will try harder to keep my mouth shut. I swear really!!!!!

I love Librivox.org

My daughter will argue that you can't get the same enjoyment from a book by listening to someone read it versus reading it yourself. I have gone around the block with her over this argument and it may not be the same but I still enjoy it maybe even more that actually reading the book myself. I am no longer tied down. I am mobile. I can go anywhere and still reap the benefits of reading. I have listened to more books in the last week than I have read in the last 5 years.

I have read/ been read 'Alexander the Great' and 'Peter the Great' by Jacob Abbott. 'Emma' and 'Sense and Sensibility' by Jane Austen, 'Poetics' and 'Politics' by Aristotle. I am currently downloading Anderson's Fairy tales and looking for more. I think 'A tale of two cities' is next. I never read it in high school. Regardless of my daughter's disdain I love Librivox.org I can read again.

There's a snake on my patio.

 

If you are unlucky enough to find a snake this large on your patio or in your yard then please call 911 and someone will come out and get it. Boa Constrictors and Pythons are not natural predators in the United States. They are also dangerous. Rattle snakes and coral snakes are also dangerous and if one is found in a yard or patio please call 911 especailly if you have children or small pets. However rat snakes, whips and ring necks are not dangerous and if you leave them alone they will leave you alone. They eat mice, lizards and other small rodents. If they are inside your house or an enclosed patio an officer will come and get it but if it is in your yard slithering away from you please do not call 911. First of all by the time the phone call is made and the officer is dispatched the snake has most likely left the area. By the time the officer arrives 15-20 minutes later the snake has long gone. It seems like there are more calls on snake sightings here lately. It could be the rain. The last time I found a snake in my pool I scooped him out, tossed him in the yard and never saw him again. Snakes don't bother me, it's spiders I hate but even then I can deal with them. I don't understand the person who looks out their house window, sees a snake sunning himself then calls 911 in hysterics. I don't get it.

Now if by chance you leave your back door open and a racoon wanders inside and decides to sit down and watch T.V. please call 911. An officer will also come out for this and yes this did happen the other day. However if you get a bat in your house or rats in your attic you need to call an exterminator.

Gators are everywhere and unless they are actively trying to eat your dog or likes watching you eat dinner from your sliding glass door please dont call. Gators live in the canals. It will soon be mating season and they will be moving from their wallows and finding a mate. Gators can and will cross 4 and 6 lane highways. They will walk through your yard to get to the next canal. They will hang out in a retention pond until they decide to move on. If there is a pond in your back yard I can guarantee there is a gator in it. Please don't call 911 if there is a gator in your pond call a trapper.

Panthers and bob cat sighting although rare still occur. Do not call 911 unless the animal is injured. Consider yourself very lucky to have seen one and keep your small pets inside. If a panther or bob cat is near it's probably because they are hungry and house cats are good eating so I have heard.

What do your taxes pay for?

 

I understand that locking your keys in the car is an inconvenience and it can be expensive, but when did it become an emergency. What kind of person calls 911 then complains when refused service because neither a child nor pet was locked inside the vehicle (this is considered an emergency) and infers that this is what they pay taxes for?
A normal person like me would call and have someone bring me a spare. If that is not feasible I would then call a lock smith or a tow company to pop the lock. In the past I have done all three of these things and paid for it like a regular person without complaint. It is my fault I locked my keys in my car therefore I will take care of it. I can think of many things that my taxes should pay for and unlocking a car door is not one of them.

Car Show

 

Fort Pierce has a variety of little shows that are held in the downtown area. Last night I took Ellie and her friends to the car show after feeding them soda and pizza. This little mustang was my favorite car. It is tricked out to the disproval of my mustang crazy daughter. She is such a purest.

I was disappointed wiht the pictures I took. First I grabbed the wrong lens. It was dusk but I did not want the glare of the flash so I used a non flash setting and I ended up with unfocused and smeared pictures.

Putting out another call for the MGD Team!

Mark, Genny and Dahmer where are you? All web sites have been quiet for the last 2 months. Has anyone heard anything? I was hoping they were coming back to the Buzz in West Palm. Loper snd Smity are cool no doubt but they are not MGD.

Audio Books

Unfortunately, I have computer issues. I have a serious addiction. I can't stay away from this box. It has kidnapped me almost completely. I am totally and completely hooked on electronics. I have still resisted the call of the IPOD but I can hear it calling me in the distance. It is the natural progression to my latest obsession. My eyes are not so good anymore and I don't read as I used to. I miss it. I have purchase a few books on CD and I like being able to listen to a story as I still surf the internet, play games or work (yuk). However, I like free and have discovered Librivox.org. I can listen to all the classics my heart desires. I am currently listening to Pride and Prejudice. There is a wonderful list of free titles including the Bible. Unfortunately, I am still stuck to the computer and so I see an MP3 player in my future. I would prefer an Aesus EEE but I have to wait for my birthday if I get it at all.

The Lunar Eclipse - Florida

181a, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

I took over 350 pictures of the eclipse. Trying to choose the right one is impossible so here is one of my better shots.

Lunar Eclipse

068, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

I took almost 100 pictures before I finally took this shot as you can see the eclipse has not begun. I have no idea what setting I used. Trail and error......

Going to see Bucky Covington in Pompano!!!!

Can't Wait!!!!!

Bucky Convington's New Single

We put Bucky in the top 20 now working on number one......Everyone call your local Stations and request Bucky.

My Handsome Husband

My Handsome Husband, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

I have been a little lonely this week. I have enjoyed the company of my daughters when I have seen them. Erin on the sofa watching T.V. and Elizabeth on the computer most of the time. It has been very quiet mostly. No squealing or tattling on who did what. Erin so bored Saturday, she cleaned the house. I guess she has a limit to how much T.V. she can watch.

In a way, I have enjoyed the peace not being annoyed or harassed. I have the bed to myself, all 4 pillows and ALL of the comforter. No stench or disgusting bowl noises. Its been a bit of a vacation.

However I miss my husband, it is too quiet. I crave a little chaos and mayhem. I miss his smile and horrible sense of humor. I miss his ugly big feet and his warm loving hands. I miss him.

He will be home late tonight and life will go back to normal.

A Good Day.

My job is all about getting information and sometimes it pays off. See link.....

Tax Time

Tax Time, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

I am starting out my new year by getting all my tax records in order. I might as well get it done now no use procrastinating. Taxes are inevitable.

Last Sunrise of 2007

Dec 31, 2007 Sunrise - Indian River 3, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

I had thought about writing a long dissertation about my life this year and all the things I have learned. Needless to say, I have learned much about myself and the others I share my world with. I am not happy with what I see but instead of ranting and boring everyone with silly details I think I will end my year as I began it. I love the sunrise and I hope you will love it too.

Merry Christmas!!!!!

New Bucky Covington Contest

All my people need to request Bucky at there local radio stations.





All my Florida people need to call and request Bucky because I am in a contest and if my team and I get the most points we get free tickets and meet and greets to his concert. I would really love to see him again so vote!!!!!

Go to Yes.com and vote ......already linked .....

Smoky Mountain Waterfall

Smoky Mountain waterfall, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

We are having a great time. We drove through the Smoky Mountain National Park today into Cades Cove. There were deer all over. They will let you get very close before they casually saunter away. It snowed a little Sunday night and there is a light dusting in the higher elevations. It is very beautiful.

So far the restaurants suck here. We keep trying to try new places to eat but so far no luck. Paid way too much for a steak last night that was over tenderized. Would have had a much better meal at Outback. Tried a local establishment thinking it would be good. Our breakfast was average at best. Same with dinner great friters and wonderful apple butter but the entrees resembled cracker barrel almost exactly only the prices were much higher. We will be eating in the rest of the week.

We are going to see my dad and Sue tomorrow.

Miss you all but having a good time anyway.......

Weekend Off

SeptBeach KPate2006 135a, originally uploaded by kathleenpate.

Can you beleive it I have the entire week end off. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. We plan on going to the VNA Air show in Stuart and maybe a quick trip to Orlando for Universal and shopping. This maybe expensive..........